| Author | Topic: Add: The Bonny Bunch of Roses O! | |
| dmcg | Posted - 13 Sep 02 - 01:13 pm | |
Bonny Bunch of Roses-O!, The By the dangers of the ocean, one morning in the month of June, The sweet feathered warbling songsters their charming notes no sweet did tune, 'Twas there I spied a female seemingly in grief and woe, Conversing with young Buonaparte concerning the bonny bunch of Roses O! Oh! Mother, said young Napolean, as he pressed his mother by the hand, Do Mother, pray, have patience until I'm able to command, I will raise a terrible army and o'er the frozen realms I'll go, And in spite of all the universe I will gain the bonny bunch of roses O! Oh! son, never speak so venturesome, for in England there are hearts of oak, There's England, Ireland and Scotland, their unity has never been broke, Now son, look at your father, in St Helena his body lies low, And you might follow after, so beware the bonny bunch of roses O! For he took three hundred thousand men, likewise some kings to join his throng, Why! he was so well provided, enough to sweep the world along But when he came to Moscow, they were overpowered by driving snow, And Moscow was a-blazing, so they lost the bonny bunch of roses O! Now Mother, adieu for ever, for alas I'm dying on my bed, If I'd lived I might have been clever, but now I droop my youthful head, But while my bones do moulder and weeping willows over me grow, The deeds of bold Napolean will sting the bonny bunch of roses O. Source: Marrow Bones, Ed Frank Purslow, EFDS Publications,1965 Notes: Gardiner H.399. Collected from Chas. Windebank, Lyndhurst, Hants, July 1906 Frank Purslow's notes follow:
Malcolm has remarked elsewhere that Frank Purslow is rather keen on deciding things are Irish when he cannot place them elsewhere and this may be another example! Database entry is here Edited By dmcg - 9/13/2002 1:24:56 PM | ||
| Watson | Posted - 13 Sep 02 - 03:53 pm | |
Dave, the narrative is largely similar to the version I know, but there are many differences in the detail of the words. The first thing that strikes me is the word "danger" in the first line. I know it as "By the margin of the ocean". There are many other small differences throughout, such as "I will raise a powerful army and through tremendous dangers go" and "England is a heart of oak". I don't know the origin of my version, except that I learned it from hearing Tony Capstick. | ||
| Malcolm Douglas |
Posted - 13 Sep 02 - 04:13 pm | |
I think that Tony learned it from Nic Jones. | ||
| Watson | Posted - 13 Sep 02 - 04:46 pm | |
Thanks Malcolm, I don't think I ever heard Nic Jones sing it. I always loved Tony's interpretation of songs, but I got the feeling his rendering of the lyrics wasn't always faithful to the source. | ||
| Jon Freeman | Posted - 13 Sep 02 - 04:57 pm | |
I know the tune simply as "The Rose Tree", a tune I learned in my time of trying to be a melodeon player with Conwy Morris... before I discovered the delights of the tenor banjo and "Irish" sessions - I had to wait till I was 27 to find that scene... Jon | ||
| Malcolm Douglas |
Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 05:24 pm | |
Roud 664 Laws J5 A popular song throughout Britain and Ireland, where most folk song collections contain one or more examples; also found in the USA and Canada. It is often assumed to be Irish because of the sympathy expressed for Napoleon; this is to ignore the fact that republican sentiments were strong in Britain at the time of the Napoleonic wars, and the ordinary people were oppressed just as much as they were in Ireland. The Bunch of Rushes is generally considered to be an English tune, not to be confused with the Irish reel The Bunch of Green Rushes. There is an Irish air, The Little Bench of Rushes (An Beinsin Luacra) which some have claimed as the original tune, but I for one am not convinced. Having said all that, I'd consider the question of origin to be open. Sets of the song beginning By the margin... all seem to be Irish versions, incidentally. The song appeared on broadsides as The [Bonny] Bunch of Roses [O], as Young Napoleon and, very occasionally, The Bonnie Bunch o Roses O. There are a number of 19th century editions at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads. They differ little, so I'll mention just two: Young Napoleon, or The bonny bunch of roses ("By the dangers of the ocean...") To the tune of: The bunch of rushes, O! Printed between 1858 and 1885 by W.S. Fortey, 2 & 3, Monmouth Court, Seven Dials [London]. Harding B 17(350a) Young Napoleon ("By the side of the green ocean ...") Printer and date unknown. Firth b.27(8) and Harding B 11(4380). I haven't seen any (identified) Irish broadside editions, so have no idea if they are earlier than the English and Scottish ones. At all events, the song as we have it now can hardly be older than 1832, when François Charles Joseph Bonaparte, "Young Napoleon", died of tuberculosis in Vienna. | ||
| Malcolm Douglas |
Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 07:46 pm | |
The following may be of interest here, as it appears to be the earliest known example of the song noted from a traditional source. The Bonny Bunch of Roses Near by the swelling ocean, One morning in the month of June, While feather'd warbling songsters Their charming notes did sweetly tune, I overheard a lady Lamenting in sad grief and woe, And talking with young Bonaparte Concerning the bonny Bunch of Roses, O. Thus spake the young Napoleon, And grasp'd his mother by the hand:- "Oh, mother dear have patience, Till I am able to command; I'll raise a numerous army, And through tremendous dangers go, And in spite of all the universe, I'll gain the bonny Bunch of Roses, O." "Oh, son, speak not so venturesome; For England is the heart of oak; Of England, Scotland, and Ireland, The unity can ne'er be broke. And think you on your father, In the Island where he now lies low, He is not yet interred in France; So beware of the bonny Bunch of Roses, O. "Your father raised great armies, And likewise kings did join the throng; He was so well provided, Enough to sweep the world along. But when he went to Moscow, He was o'erpower'd by drifting snow; And though Moscow was blazing He lost the bonny Bunch of Roses, O." "Oh, mother, adieu for ever, I am now on my dying bed, If I had liv'd I'd have been brave But now I droop my youthful head. And when our bones do moulder, And weeping-willows o'er us grow, Its deeds to bold Napoleon Will stain the bonny Bunch of Roses, O." From William Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs, vol.II, 1881; pp.232-3. "This Air was taken by the Editor note for note from the singing of a native of Aberdeenshire, who had it from his father, a peninsular veteran. The words are almost the same as he sung. The Ballad is printed in different forms on Broad-sides, and the Air is often heard sung by street Ballad-singers. The Editor has not found, in his researches, a copy of the Air hitherto printed." X:1 T:The Bonny Bunch of Roses B:Traditional Ballad Airs, W. Christie. Vol.II, 1881, p.232. S:"A native of Aberdeenshire", 1850. L:1/8 Q:1/4=120 M:4/4 K:C G|c2 (d3/f/) (e3/c/)(d3/B/)|c3 A {A} G2 (FE)|~F2 (GA) (_BA)(GF)| w:Near by the_ swell_ing_ o-cea-an, One_ morn-ing_ in_ the_ {F}E2 C2 C3 G|c2 (d3/f/) (e3/c/)(d3/B)/|(c3 A) {A}G2 (FE)|~F2 (GA) (_BA)(GF)| w:month of June, While fea-the'd_ warb_ling_ song_sters Their_ charm-ing_ notes_ did_ {F}E2 C2 C2 z (D3/4E/4)|F3 E F2 (GA)|(_B3 A) G2 (F3/E/)| w:sweet-ly tune, I_ o-ver heard a_ la_dy La_ F2 G2 c2 (d3/f/)|e2 d2{cd} c3 G|c2 (d3/f/) (e3/c/)(d3/B/)| w:ment-ing in sad_ grief and woe, And talk-ing_ with_ young_ c3 A {A}G2 (FE)|~F2 GA _BAGF|{F}E2 C2 C4 z|] w:Bo-na-parte Con_cern-ing the bon-ny Bunch of Ros-es, O. The tune is decorated, so I haven't been able to check the abc completely; my fingers are crossed. This time, the ~ really does indicate a turn. The second note in the thirteenth bar is marked for a trill, but I don't know how that would be expressed in abc; if indeed it can be. Edited By Malcolm Douglas - 9/14/2002 8:35:51 PM | ||
| Ed | Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 08:07 pm | |
Malcolm, I've stuck your ABC into a test post in the database. Appears to have similar slur problems to those that 'The Bloody Garden' had. Let me know if the other stuff displays correctly. I won't have any time to correct anything for a couple of days, though. Ed Edited By Ed - 9/14/2002 8:13:07 PM | ||
| Malcolm Douglas |
Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 08:38 pm | |
I think the problem was my use of slur indications in combination with gracenote indications; they are probably redundant in that context and confuse the software. I've removed them in the abc above; with luck all should now be well. | ||
| Ed | Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 08:48 pm | |
Thanks Malcolm, Updated the test post Looks good to me | ||
| Malcolm Douglas |
Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 09:35 pm | |
Only one small thing; the graces in bar 13 are tied to the note following, while they actually belong with the note preceding. Is there any way of changing that, or are we stuck with it? | ||
| Jon Freeman | Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 09:59 pm | |
Malcolm, I don't know but it looks to me as if Ed may have done a "Bloody Garden" fix on bar 13. If that is the case, the short answer is we are stuck with it, at least for now. Hopefully some time someone my come up with a better solution or a new revision of abcm2ps that adresses our problem may be released but for now, it does seem the best answer and my attempts at questioning do point to the thought that overall, we are using the best available program for the conversion from abc. Jon | ||
| Malcolm Douglas |
Posted - 14 Sep 02 - 10:16 pm | |
Ed didn't change my revised version; it may be an abc default, perhaps. | ||
| dmcg | Posted - 15 Sep 02 - 07:41 am | |
I have, after some experiments, decided to add Malcolm's new version as a new database entry and refer it to the main entry. I have taken the ABC from the "Test post" version. I admit to being rather lost who has done what to end up with the ABC we now have and, apart from the grace note Malcolm referred to, whether further work is needed on it. Edited By dmcg - 9/15/2002 8:12:30 AM | ||
| Ed | Posted - 15 Sep 02 - 08:37 pm | |
Dave, The ABC is all Malcolm's work. I merely copied and pasted. I've had a look at the grace notes and can't see any solution, I'm afraid. Apart from that I believe it's correct. Ed | ||
| Bill Brown (guest) |
Posted - 11 Mar 09 - 03:14 am | |
There are some very awkward lines in both of the Bonny Bunch of Roses tunes provided. "The sweet feathered warbling songsters" for example. They should have called it "Bonny Bunch of Syllables." | ||
| dmcg | Posted - 11 Mar 09 - 08:08 am | |
I enjoyed that comment - it is a feeling I an very familiar with, since most of the time I sing unaccompanied. It does raise an issue for this site and how songs were generally collected and published. For lyrical songs like the Bonny Bunch of Roses, what generally happened was that every verse was sung to a different tune, in the sense that there are extra notes and musical phrases introduced, as well as the more common changes like a crochet becoming two quavers. This is a huge problem for the collector, and you find that someone like Sharp, for example, is continually trying out different forms of notation to try to capture it. Sometimes, for example, the tune starts with three time signatures in an attempt to convey the freedom of the phrases; on other occasions you find virtually every bar is given a different time signature; on yet other occasions (I'm not sure if it is Sharp I am thinking of here) the time signature is abandoned entirely. Simlarly for the melodies themselves: very commonly, you come across an asterisk in the music and a note that says 'verse 3 sung to this phrase here' and so on. Neither standard musical notation nor ABC copes very well this this, unless you go to the extreme and write out the entire music in full. For pragmatic reasons, the collectors rarely did that, and we certainly don't. Until relatively recently, we didn't even have a mechanism to indicate alternative phrases using the 'asterisk' system I referred to above, so most of the tunes held here don't have it, even when the collector did notate the variation. | ||
| Bill Brown (guest) |
Posted - 11 Mar 09 - 01:33 pm | |
I'm no expert, but I have heard a (very) few field recordings and read their transcriptions, and my impression is that they are treated far too reverently, especially when I can hear on the recording that the old timer clearly forgot something or got his/her lines mixed up or has the tune wrong or can't sing it in key anymore. If a collector stuck a mike in my face I'd probably make the same mistakes, but there doesn't seem to be any accounting for this. Didn't they ever review the song with the singer before or after? Maybe ask some probing questions, like "are you sure the tune doesn't actually go like this?" Reminds me of the morris dance with the odd leg swing that modern dancers joke is only there because the fellow it was collected from was bow-legged. Anyway, I'm suspicious of that "sweet feathered warbling songsters" line. Not only does it not scan (without torturing it), it doesn't fit the rest of the lryics as though it were written my someone else - borrowed from another song, perhaps. Or perhaps it contains symbolism I don't understand. The rest of the song is very straightforward and doesn't stop to take in the prosaic view and the birdies singing, so why does it start off like a fluffy romantic ballad, then abruptly veer off into politics? I'm wondering if this is a parody - keeping the original first six lines. And maybe the original was to a different tune. - Bill Brown | ||
| squeezer (guest) |
Posted - 11 Mar 09 - 09:22 pm | |
I agree entirely with Bill Brown's comment that field recordings are too often treated with undue reverence. There seems to be a view that any recording, whether written or phonographic or electronic, represents some kind of definitive form which must be strictly adhered to in order to be "correct". In fact, it is blindingly obvious that singers and musicians have always made their own personal variations. I will go further and say that they always will and always should. There is nothing particularly admirable and no artistic virtue in "being faithful to a source". I don't quite get Malcolm D's point about assumptions of an Irish origin ignoring the fact of strong republican sympathies (in England) during the Napoleonic Wars. While having doubts as to just how strong republicanism was, this is emphatically not a Napoleonic era song. Statements about the origins of songs (e.g. whether they are Irish or were first written for the stage) can only be an opinion where there is no written evidence. Personally, until proven otherwise, I have no problem in putting this one down as Irish. Among other things, the "sweet feathered songsters" in v. 1 which puzzle Bill Brown are to me a flourish typical of an Irish composer, as is the subject matter. Sharp collected three different tunes for this song (with the "roses-o" title) in Somerset. As far as one can make a judgement about the origin of tunes (and ackowledging what a minefield that can be) they and Christy's all seem to me to be more Celtic then English. According to Karpeles, O'Laughlinn also has a tune. It would be highly interesting to know if it resembles any of these four or is completely different. "The Green Linnet" is sung intermittently throughout the Chieftain's "Bonaparte's Retreat" album, and contains a verse very like the one beginning "Twas then he raised an army ..." This song is, I beleive, in the Irish sean nos tradition, and (from memory) it seems to me that its tune is a relative of one of those found in Somerset by Sharp. Bill, if you're having trouble for any reason with those sweet warblers, change them for something more amenable. | ||
| squeezer (guest) |
Posted - 11 Mar 09 - 10:39 pm | |
Actually, mentioning sean nos was at best ill-considered. Let's just leave it at "Irish". | ||
| wmlbrown | Posted - 12 Mar 09 - 04:10 am | |
Thanks squeezer, but I rather like the warbling so-o-ng-sters line. Interesting background info, and another tune to look up! --Bill Brown | ||
| dmcg | Posted - 12 Mar 09 - 07:07 am | |
If you can get access to it, I highly recommend the article "That Chief Undercurrent of my Mind" in the current issue of The Folk Music Journal (EFDSS, Volume 9, Number 4, 2009) where it happens there is commentary on the whole issue of how "respectfully" the field recording should be treated. In the early days, of course, the only way of recording was in writing, but by the time Percy Grainger was active the phonograph was available. This led to -let us say - lively discussion on the merits of each method, and to quite philosphical discussions on the extent to which you can separate the singer and the song; this particularly had a bearing on the extent to which the collectors working on paper 'corrected' the song (i.e. added their own interpretation.) My own view, for what that is worth, is that the audio recordings are the better media as they encompass not only the song but also the style; however even the weakest of us is an artist and our role is to present these songs as they affect us; we are not phonographs trying to produce an identical record of a pseudo-original. So knowing and hopefully appreciating the Fred Jordan style (for example) is one thing; trying to emulate it rather than develop our own style is something else entirely. The same applies to the lyrics: I particularly enjoy the ballads and to me the point is telling the story not sticking to a particular set of words. However you need to read and understand the various versions to see how the story has been understood by a variety of people in order to add depth to your own telling of it. Note: When I say "even the weakest of us is an artist", I mean it. Even those who only sing to themselves in the shower or when driving about on their own and who would never have the courage to sing in public. To me, if you sing for the sheer joy of it, that's enough. | ||
| Jon Freeman | Posted - 12 Mar 09 - 09:58 am | |
I think I'd say similar with (dance) tunes. As far as I'm concerned, I learn a basic melody. What I do with it from there is a product of listening to others, (in)ability, sometimes mood and in sessions who I'm playing with/how the tune is going. There are rules of course, eg. keeping time is essential but in a sense, I think I could suggest the tune itself can be a living thing. I don't have the skill anyway so it has to be this way but even if I had the ability, I think it would be a mistake to play a carbon copy of something heard on record. I think a bit of "you" (but not ego) should be part of what you are doing. Of course when it really gets great, it becomes "Us" playing for and being swept along by the music. | ||
| dmcg | Posted - 25 Mar 09 - 08:34 am | |
One more thought on the respect with which old versions are treated: I thought it worth remarking on my approach to new singers and versions. PROVIDED I am convinced that the new singer - being it Martin Carthy or Joe Nobody from the local club - is approaching the song or ballad in a way that speaks to them, I don't really draw much distinction between the historical versions and new one. I can even give a specific example. Recently I heard Maddy Prior talking about her song "I Heard The Banns" on "Seven for Old England" (which is based on The False Lover). Maddy was saying how it struck her that the first time the girl knew her lover would be marrying someone else was in church when the banns for the wedding were read out, surrounded by people who knew all about her and her relationship which the false young man and that her humilation was a very public affair. That is an insight with a personal involvement with the song that I cannot help bringing to it each time I sing it from now on, even if what I sing is word-for-word one of the old versions. | ||
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